"Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness" is the latest film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Benedict Cumberbatch returns as a powerful sorcerer who must protect Earth from mystical menaces.

The new film finds Doctor Strange battling an unexpected nemesis as he comes to the aid of a teenager with the power to travel across alternate universes. I'm Glen Weldon.

THOMPSON: And I'm Stephen Thompson. Today we are talking about "Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness" on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. Joining Glen and me today is iHeartRadio producer Joelle Monique. Hey, Joelle.

THOMPSON: It's great to have you here. Also joining us is Daisy Rosario. She's a podcast producer and storyteller whom you may have heard on The Moth Radio Hour. Hey, Daisy.

THOMPSON: So glad to have you all here today. So there is a phrase I use a lot on this show, and I'm trying not to use it quite so much. That phrase is, there is a lot to unpack. And yet there is no way I can even begin to unpack the interlocking complexities that explain where "Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness" fits into the endlessly sprawling Marvel Cinematic Universe. That is saying nothing of all the spoilers we're going to try to avoid, and though we are going to do our best not to spoil anything major here, we are bound to get into some of the basic contours of what's going on. For example, this movie contains several computer-generated special effects.

"Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness" is a sequel to 2016's "Doctor Strange," but much has happened since that movie, including the many, many events of "Avengers: Infinity War," "Avengers: Endgame," "WandaVision" and all sorts of other Marvel-adjacent projects, many of which inform the events of this story. Early in the film, we meet a teenager named America Chavez, played by Xochitl Gomez. We soon learn that she is learning how to control a superpower that lets her travel across the endless array of alternate universe that form the Multiverse. Doctor Strange reaches out to Wanda Maximoff, a.k.a. the Scarlet Witch - she is played by Elizabeth Olsen - to ask what she knows about the Multiverse. And soon we are all barreling through a sprawling maze of battles and showdowns and buildings getting knocked over, portals getting opened, alternate versions of Doctor Strange and other characters, and much, much more.

We've got your Benedict Wong as the Sorcerer Supreme. We got your Rachel McAdams as Doctor Strange's on-again, off-again love interest. We got your Chiwetel Ejiofor as Mordo. We got your cameos that we are not going to spoil. You name it. "Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness" was directed by Sam Raimi. He directed the first three "Spider-Man" movies - the Tobey Maguire ones - as well as a bunch of major horror films. This movie is only in theaters.

Daisy, I'm going to start with you. What did you think of "Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness"?

ROSARIO: I mean, there's a lot. He's in a multiverse of madness. There should be a lot, probably, right?

ROSARIO: Yeah, exactly. I mean, the "Doctor Strange" movies are my favorite Marvel series that stars two men named Benedict. It's just so weird to me. Like, when does that happen? We've got two Benedicts. We don't talk about it enough. I enjoyed this movie, and quite honestly, I think part of why I enjoyed it is 'cause I really wasn't that worried about how it fits into the larger narrative. I think with all the Multiverse stuff, I'm just kind of going, OK. Like, I know you guys are using this to, you know, help push along some big shifts and some big changes, and I'm just kind of, like, going along for the ride.

You know, as you mentioned, Sam Raimi is the director. I'm a Sam Raimi fan. So I think going into this movie, my biggest question for myself was, like, is Sam Raimi going to get to Sam Raimi? Like, will he get to, like, turn it on? And, you know, I felt like there was a point at which, yeah, he went full Raimi. Like, throughout the movie, there's, like, you know, hints, and you're like, oh, yeah. And if you know things about what he does as a filmmaker, you'll absolutely recognize them. But then there's, like, a certain point where a switch has been flipped, and they're like, oh, by the way, in case you were not aware that Sam Raimi is the director, Sam Raimi is the director. And I found myself really just smiling at that moment. And there were moments where I just found myself, like, really happy for him because it felt like Disney and Sam Raimi - like, what's that going to be? And it ended up to me feeling like a mutually beneficial relationship, which I think is great, you know?

I wasn't thinking too hard about the heavy details. I thought it was an interesting ride. If I were forced to try to specifically lay out the details of the plot, admittedly, I would find that very difficult, but also kind of unnecessary. I thought all the actors were great. Like, it just was a fun, weird ride, and I enjoyed it. I didn't think it was, like, mind-blowing, although I guess that's what they want it to be, is mind-blowing. I mean, like, literally so much is happening. But I did feel like in terms of the order of these movies, kind of getting to see "Spider-Man: No Way Home" and being introduced to, like, the largeness of this concept by really focusing on just a few characters also made kind of the craziness of this movie a lot more accessible.

THOMPSON: Gotcha. All right. How about you, Joelle? What did you think?

MONIQUE: Yeah. Listen, as the resident person who's seen every Marvel property at least three times, I do really enjoy what this movie is doing. Specifically, Marvel is coming off of the big event, and if you're a comic book reader, you know that after giant events, everyone goes back home and deals with the ramifications of those giant events. We've been dealing with a lot of Spider-Man because Sony is going to keep that character going no matter what. This is the first Marvel property where we're coming back. It's just Marvel. And what's sort of exciting about it is while yes, there is a giant Multiverse aspect to it, it also feels like an individual issue of a comic book, in that here's Doctor Strange doing very Doctor Strange things. Like, he's going into a Multiverse.

There are characters that you sort of would expect to see, but they're in the background and never quite taking over. What is his very specific journey of, like, here's a guy who's draped in fear his entire life, and he's going to tackle that fear with the help of a character whose fear is the major hindrance of her life, you know? And it's old guy and young girls sort of come together and figure out their lives. And I love the bear cub aspect of the storyline. It really works for me. I think they take Strange in new and interesting places without sort of abandoning the character. And yes, the Sam Raimi of it all - we get an official horror movie in the MCU. It's our first horror movie, and it's so much fun.

THOMPSON: Joelle, you are forgetting "Morbius."

MONIQUE: Stephen, why would you bring that movie...

THOMPSON: We are living in the summer of "Morbius," people.

MONIQUE: But this feels great in a way that you can bring - you know, I mean, I don't have kids, so I always give ages wrong. But I think a 10-year-old could probably handle this film and not have horrifying nightmares. There are moments where I think maybe you would want to shield your 5-year-old's eyes and be like, don't look at that; it might scare you. But overall, I really did enjoy this movie. It's a lot of fun.

THOMPSON: One of my big takeaways from this film is that it is way too scary for little kids, and I was very taken aback by the PG-13 rating and how much horror imagery, how much just intense imagery there is in this movie compared to most of these, like, kind of buildings-getting-knocked-down kind of movies. My kids are now adults, but I definitely had that parenting, like, oh, man, I would not take a little kid to this movie. Just putting that out there.

THOMPSON: All right, Glen, what did you think?

WELDON: This movie is kind of a mess. It's not entirely an unpleasant one. I mean, Raimi has said in interviews that a lot of the things about this movie were changing on the fly as he was going through it. So they were laying the tracks right down ahead of the train while the train was in motion, given COVID and a host of other things. It feels like that. It's a jumble. So my reaction to it isn't as pure. It's one of those films that while you're looking at it, you feel like floating in the air between you and it is this kind of gauzy scrim of studio notes and studio...

WELDON: ...Memos. But I think what's really going on here is it's drawing on a much wider network of preexisting content, not simply a kind of direct MCU timeline. So that moment in "Endgame" when the hammer lands in Captain America's hands and the crowd goes nuts because that moment, the groundwork for that was laid so carefully and methodically in a linear series of films leading up to it. Here, whenever there's a similar callback or a cameo, some of them drawn from some very surprising corners of the MCU, which I thought...

WELDON: ...We all agreed never to bring up again in polite conversation...

WELDON: ...Because it's drawing on such a diffuse network of sources, the crowd doesn't go nuts; it goes, huh (laughter).

WELDON: So and then - not to spoil anything, but not everything you want is made out of the cameos and callbacks because we have to establish how evil the villain is. I just think, in my case, I enjoyed it, but the returns are - they are diminishing for me.

THOMPSON: Yeah, I kind of had that same diminishing-returns feel. This threw a lot at the screen. This threw a Wikipedia page's worth of exposition...

THOMPSON: ...Got crammed into every corner of the dialogue. And it was really hard to follow (laughter). There were so many callbacks to things I don't remember, relationships between characters that I don't remember, all kind of thrown against the screen in this very, very, very exhausting and chaotic jumble. It is a true summer movie. It is throwing a lot of volume, a lot of action, a lot of battles at the screen. And if you are into just, like, a big, loud movie full of action and multiverses, this is that movie.

I will say the 2016 "Doctor Strange" had its faults. But one of the things that I really loved about it was the visual feel of it. It had this kind of CGI steampunk quality to it that didn't look like every other Marvel action movie I had ever seen. And this movie, with the exception of a couple of really notable, inventive set pieces, is mostly a very familiar CGI look. I would describe the aesthetic of this film as sort of Kenneth Branagh's "Thor," instead of that more CGI steampunk thing that looked so distinct. And to me, I am much, much more partial to the kind of wisecracking, kind of lighter energy of some of these movies like "Thor: Ragnarok" or "Ant-Man" or "Iron Man," where you have, like, a little bit more of a playful feel. And this had a lot more kind of leaden, portent and seriousness that I just didn't click with quite as much. So for me, this was kind of like a perfectly, like, engrossing time at the movies but just not as much of a thrill as I had hoped.

MONIQUE: I kind of wish that they had allowed Sam to do less special - like, he lives in a world of practical effects and in-camera effects that are so tasty and delicious and work really well. And I think that when we get to real sets and more stripped-down things, that the movie does get a lot better. That being said, I feel like the places that are most heavily CGI'd were very much, like, getting it out. Like, OK, it's a floaty book thing, and we're done. Move onto the next thing. We got to get out of here. We don't know what's happening in (laughter) this space. So I can kind of forgive it, but I agree with you that as far as the visuals, when you start getting those wild Sam camera swings and, you know, the breaking of the fourth wall and all of that stuff really lends itself to Sam's style, and I think that's when the movie was at its height, for sure.

ROSARIO: Yeah. I mean, I've often described the 2016 movie as a movie where the special effects team deserved a better movie because, like, they showed up for work.

ROSARIO: And everybody else made kind of a straightforward movie. I get what you're saying. I also felt like some of that was just trying to blend these styles - right? - because I do feel like it gets more Raimi as it goes. And it all - it felt to me like they were trying to start us off with the "Doctor Strange" kind of world that we may understand or know best. And then we're, like, trying to, like, kind of slowly, like, crossfade those together, like, that and Sam Raimi's style, until we were, you know, much more just completely living in Sam Raimi's style. So, like, even as I was watching it, I felt aware of that. I recognize that there were a lot of other characters and stuff and things that were coming in. There were my own, you know, one or two things that I was excited about. I didn't feel that pressured to try to, like, keep up with it. It just felt like, OK, this world is expanding, and as this world expands, like, this is just going to happen more.

WELDON: Yeah, but the guy who wrote this movie also wrote the "Loki" Disney+ series, and that was all about branching timelines. And this is about multiverses. "What If...?" was about multiverses that were created by branching timelines, I think. In "No Way Home," Doctor Strange opened cracks between the universes. The whole shtick with Marvel is how ruthlessly they keep everything in line, how all those studio notes I mentioned are basically like the sheepdogs nipping at the various creators' hooves to keep them not penned in but moving in the same direction. Yet every one of those different properties I just mentioned has a slightly different take on what the hell the multiverse is. It's not...

WELDON: ...Something you notice when you're watching each one, but the minute you take a step back, you're like, well, the rules are slightly different, which is what I thought this whole thing was about. It was about making sure we're all on the same damn page.

MONIQUE: America Chavez, who's played by Xochitl Gomez - you know, she could just punch her way into a different multiverse. But for Wanda, you know, it's a lot more effort. I think that what Marvel is smartly trying to do is to be like, not everyone's going to keep up with all of these properties, so it's inevitable that at some point, people are going to get lost. If we make the rules a little more vague, then whatever properties you're following, as long as that's a direct line, you can jump in and enjoy and jump out and be OK. I'll see how the Marvel eggheads feel about it down the road. For me, you know, at the end of the day, it's a comic book movie. I don't hold...

MONIQUE: ...Too fast and hard to the rules. As long as it's fun and it's working and the rules make sense to the characters in that moment, I'm game.

ROSARIO: Overall, yeah, it just kind of felt like, all right, like, I don't completely understand the multiverse, but they're all trying to figure it out in different ways, too. And, like, when they get to a point that they want me to kind of stick to, I'm like, they'll lay that out in whatever movie at that time.

MONIQUE: So they keep saying the multiverse is something we know frighteningly little about.

MONIQUE: And every time we address the multiverse, it ends in absolute chaos. Like...

MONIQUE: There has been no finite resolution in any of these storylines about, like, OK, that's what's actually happening here. So I agree that it seems like they're like, we cast a wide net, and we'll work our way backwards.

THOMPSON: Hand-waving - exactly. I mean, that's what I wanted to say about the multiverse - is right now the multiverse feels like a device more than a story. I will be curious to see if they're able to kind of maneuver it into being more of an overarching story than just...

THOMPSON: ...A way to kind of integrate intellectual property. And this is where I have to point out that this movie does not benefit from its proximity in release date to the movie "Everything Everywhere All At Once"...

THOMPSON: ...Which I think is just as exhausting but 200 times as exhilarating.

THOMPSON: I guess my last question about this movie is sort of about Doctor Strange's place in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And kind of he seems to have taken on the role that Tony Stark was playing...

THOMPSON: ...In the Marvel movies leading up to "Endgame." Now they kind of seems centered on Doctor Strange, who has some parallels with Tony Stark. Do you think he is a worthy heir to that role? Do you like his place in all these movies?

MONIQUE: I think Benedict Cumberbatch is a fine replacement but not exciting or new 'cause I love Benedict Cumberbatch, but I think he's here to collect that check and then go do those movies he really likes. The man's got range, and it's not being pushed here.

MONIQUE: He sounds exhausted when he talks about these movies.

MONIQUE: He's like, yeah, we don't know. We had to go back and shoot again. And it's all - you know, this is not a passion project for him. For Robert Downey Jr., he loves the spotlight. The man's got charisma and care for these movies until he literally could not anymore. And I think that that's sort of the energy they need to replace, not the wealthy white guy learns a lesson, which has been my problem with Doctor Strange from the get-go. And I was like, this is a magical Tony Stark. And it's not enough character difference...

MONIQUE: ...For me to care about him in a deep way, in a way that's going to keep me hooked throughout. I mean, to Elizabeth Olsen's credit, like, she is down for the cause.

THOMPSON: And she is emoting against that green screen.

THOMPSON: ...Pouring herself into this performance.

ROSARIO: Yeah. Elizabeth Olsen - I did find myself thinking multiple times, like, dang. Her acting in this is just - like, she is on just, like, a different level than everyone else, not just in this movie. I mean, like, her commitment to it in the sense of - I felt very aware that, like, different actors would not pull me in as much and make me believe the bizarreness of what's happening around them. Like, she is in it - really impressive considering that it's all green screen.

ROSARIO: I do think that this movie overall benefits from not being as much about Doctor Strange himself, right? Like, he does have his journey, and it's enough of a journey. If that journey was lacking, that would feel really odd. But it's enough of, like, a basic journey that we can follow it through while still focusing much more on some other characters that have some real interesting stuff happening.

WELDON: Yeah. This is a billion-dollar franchise. Put more money into your wig budget. Strange's hair...

ROSARIO: Oh, my God. Thank you. Yes.

WELDON: ...Looks like a hat. It always looks like a hat.

WELDON: What's going on there? That's a thing to focus on.

WELDON: And also, I am all for America Chavez being introduced to the MCU, Marvel's first queer Latinx superhero - love it. When that happens, you've got a character named America, you have to take another pass at your script and look out for things where characters say things like, is America OK? You've stolen America's power? Like...

WELDON: This movie is going to get memed within an inch of its life.

THOMPSON: Well, we want to know what you think about "Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness" - guessing a few of you will end up seeing it. Find us on Facebook at facebook.com/pchh, or tweet us at @pchh. Up next, what is making us happy this week.

Now it's time for our favorite segment of this week and every week, What's Making Us Happy This Week. Daisy Rosario, what is making you happy this week?

ROSARIO: What is making me happy right now is a full-on classic. So I don't know about other people, but, you know, throughout the pandemic, there was just a really long period of time where I could not read. I would pick things up. They looked interesting to me. I'd get two sentences in, and my brain would go, nuh-uh. And I found myself finally able to read in these last few weeks. And I have been enjoying very much going through Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot books.

ROSARIO: Like, that is what I'm really into right now. And so it's been really fun to kind of dig into the classics, where we know that so many people have been inspired by Agatha Christie, you know. As her bio will remind you constantly, biggest selling author besides the Bible and Shakespeare. So it's been cool to kind of start right at Book 1 of Hercule Poirot and keep going. So yeah, I highly recommend them. They're fun. They're easy to read. I thought the language might be not difficult, but a little more stiff, if you will. And they're actually just fun and light. So I've been really enjoying those. And there's so many of them, so I'll be working my way through that for a while. That's what's making me happy right now.

THOMPSON: Nice. Thank you, Daisy Rosario. Joelle Monique, what is making you happy this week?

MONIQUE: Well, guys, I have a new show coming out. It's called "Comic Con Meta*Pod." And I'm trying to tap into my creativity. I'm trying to find ways - like, how do I keep my creativity up? And how do I keep pushing forward? And there's a book called "A Swim In A Pond In The Rain." It's by George Saunders.

MONIQUE: I'm sure people have recommended it before because I've heard it on every podcast. But I'm just here to just toot that horn again. It is so good. It's like a workbook. And you go through and, basically, Mr. Saunders has you read a page of an old Russian short story at a time and explore, like, what is hitting for you? And it really puts into a microcosm, you know, how are you impacted by storytelling? And it encourages you to bring sort of those impactful moments to your own work. And it's been a godsend. It's a light, easy read for something that sounds laborious and heavy. It is fun because it's really - again, I miss school.

MONIQUE: It puts me back in that chair of being like, oh, I'm figuring something out. And I get to read stories I haven't read before. So it's delightful. Check out "A Swim In A Pond In The Rain," by George Saunders.

THOMPSON: And, Joelle, if I may ask, what is "Comic Con Meta*Pod"?

MONIQUE: Oh, "Comic Con Meta*Pod," it's my new podcast. It's a collaboration between the Los Angeles Comic Con and iHeartPodcasts. It's basically a pop culture convention brought to your ears every Wednesday. So on the release of Comic Book Day, we'll talk comic books and the newest movies and TV shows. We've got an interview with Giancarlo Esposito coming up, which I'm so excited about. That's our premiere episode. Yeah. My co-host is Hector Navarro, who if you listen to the "SpongeBob" podcast or have seen any of the DC podcasts in the past you might know of. He's incredibly talented, deep knowledge. So it's going to be super nerdy. It's going to be a lot of fun. And I'm really excited about it.

THOMPSON: Wonderful. I can't wait to hear it. Glen Weldon, what is making you happy this week?

WELDON: I like a lot of the free world and playing Elden Ring. It's an open-world video game...

WELDON: ...Where you run around a vast realm, defeating enemies, getting better armor and better weapons as you go. And it's so sad and gorgeous. And it is a game that is not dominated by but, I would say, festooned with boss battles.

THOMPSON: Yes, I've heard this.

WELDON: These are enemies who are impossible to defeat unless you memorize their movesets so you can dodge their attacks and then move in, when they have a very brief window of vulnerability, do a tiny bit of damage, then back off - lather, rinse, repeat. I hate boss battles. I am no good at them.

WELDON: I've always been no good at them. And so in open-world games, I tend to avoid them and just trot around on my little horsey and just gaze at vistas. And the thing about Elden Ring is, you die. You die a lot. So I was thinking about all this. And then I went to YouTube. And I typed in the words Elden Ring, die, react.

WELDON: And up popped video after video of people playing Elden Ring. You see their characters on screen. You see their faces as they play and as they die and as they get so close, so close, so close to ending a boss' final form, when you can see they're only one sword stroke away from defeating them and the boss completely smokes them.

WELDON: Or they get so excited that they fall off their horse, as has happened to me many times, and get completely smoked. It is the best of all worlds.

WELDON: I just feel schadenfreude. I am so happy and giggling. So Elden Ring, sure, but Elden Ring death reactions on YouTube making me happy this week.

THOMPSON: I love it. Thank you, Glen Weldon. Well, the first thing I do want to quickly mention is that Saturday is Free Comic Book Day.

THOMPSON: So it is a great time to go to your local comic book store. If they are participating in Free Comic Book Day, which many comic book stores are, they will give you a free comic book. Glen, you know a little something about Free Comic Book Day.

THOMPSON: And I'm sure you cosign that it is highly recommended. What is making me happy is that I just finally got around to taking Glen Weldon's recommendation and my partner's recommendation and watching "The Other Two."

THOMPSON: "The Other Two," it is on HBO Max. There are two seasons. There are three siblings. One of them is a 13-year-old boy who becomes an overnight, Justin Bieber-style pop sensation. That overnight pop sensation has two young-adult siblings who are directionless and must contend with the fact that their little brother is suddenly a massively famous person. Their mom is played by Molly Shannon. The young singer's agent, Streeter Peters, is played by the great Ken Marino. This show is so funny right out of the gate and, crucially, everyone likes each other. This is such a sweet, charming and deeply, deeply funny show. Stream it this weekend. Just do it now. Trust me. It's so funny, "The Other Two" on HBO Max. That is what is making me happy this week. If you want links for what we recommended, plus some more recommendations, sign up for our newsletter at npr.org/popculturenewsletter. That brings us to the end of our show. Joelle Monique, Daisy Rosario, Glen Weldon, thanks to all of you for being here.

THOMPSON: This episode was produced by Mike Katzif and edited by Jessica Reedy. Hello Come In provides the music you are bobbing your head to right now. Thanks for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Stephen Thompson. And we will see you all next week, when we'll be talking about the "American Song Contest."

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